Braun CSV-13 Restoration

Receiver und (Vor-)Verstärker außerhalb atelier/regie/slim line
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Braun CSV-13 Restoration

#1 Beitrag von Racing » 20.01.2014, 11:41

As much as i do understand German,English is just more simple to me..hope you´ll survive none the less :D

So. I work on a LOT of tubeamps. Mainly for guitar/bass use though,so using tubers at home had to this point been redundant. As such the time had come to go that route however.
German e-bay was scavenged for a donor and after some going back and forth and i won an auction for this old Braun CSV-13.

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Certainly not in the best of nicks,but at least all original and in one piece.

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As i took delivery of the amplifier the first thing i did was to take the lid off,and what greeted me was 50years of dustbunnies,nicotine and plain old junk. 1 liter of rubbing alcohol and a brush followed by liberal use of window cleaner later though the amp looked about like new on the inside.

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All the stock tubes from Tfk and Valvo were still in place. In fact,the amp had from the looks of it never been touched on the inside.

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So. What i basically had on my hands was this really nice looking unmolested mid -60´s piece that in essence just craved for a little aesthetic attention on the outside really.

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Yep. 100% stock. All the way.


As i hooked my multimeter up and started to check things out from a practical point of view however it soon enough became evident that the amp lacked out in the service dept. In short,it needed some fresh components tossed at it in the form av e-lytes (elkos) and what have you not.

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The PCB´s (platine) looked about as new too after the thorough clean.

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Upon a simple checkup with my DMM it turned out that first of all voltage was WAY down for the rectified front end heaters,i had like just atop 6VDC or so,and in turn there was approx 30VAC worth of ripple in the HT circuit. In short,this had to be handled.
That and....

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...this,had to be handled as well IMO. As i´ve bought this CSV to be a performer more than a conversation piece i had my heart set die hard at replacing the old onboard selenium rectifiers too.
First of all old selenium rectifiers that has been loaded heavily might very well have developed arching issues within,creating an even larger voltage drop than when new,and in turn they ain´t the most reliable thing around. Atop that,WHEN they actually go "boom" selenium is released into free air and that stuff is toxic beyond belief.. So. Replacement with current day and era silicone was in order.

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Both rectifiers were replaced with common silicone units,and the elkos in turn were replaced by axials in my case. The latter an easy decision as axials are way cheaper than the "tower" F&T ones up here in Sweden.
At the same time the electrolytes for the bias/heater circuit were replaced as well of course,as was the odd critical high power resistor.

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Seing that component size has gone down a bit in 50 years that left this area basically vacant. This then where the stock HT selenium rectifier resided stock.

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So called 1 Ohm "bias resistors" were installed. Although i certainly own bias testers the install of qualified 1 Ohm resistors make this a once done deal. In short,no matter who down the line can easily check bias of each powertube with a common multimeter.
If you look closely at the picture though yet another modification has been pulled,and that is the install of a 25V zener heading for each screen grid.

The point here being that by the swap from selenium to silicone and in turn the implement of fresh elkos B+ voltage jumped. Something that really is all good,however..
The old Valvos i know to be able to take a hell of a beating when asked to,not so however with newer day and era tubes like commonly available JJ´s or whatever.
To have 340VDC riding on the anodes/plates of the powertubes is perfectly safe,however...when pushed B+ will plummet a bit and doing so it might very well produce a situation where the screens will turn positive as far as potential vs the anodes/plates and see...the screens of modern day tubes are simply not designed to handle that.
Something i know of all to well from working on instrument amps,that commonly are run wide open throttle.
So. One way of handling that in an easy manner is the install of them 25V zener diodes. No matter the transients voltage will now regardless always be them 25V lower than B+ voltage.
In practice this also brings a "snappier" powerstage. In short you´ll come to experience the amplifier being "more powerful" (while it´s not) when you start to push it.
This is a trick i use in many an old guitar/bass tube amp when called for and it really works wonders.

Another "feature" that came up as a function of replacing the rectifiers was that now the DC voltage for the front tube heaters was to high.
Easy enough to remedy by simply replacing the stock 26 Ohm highpower resistor in the circuit with two 15 Ohm,for 30 Ohm total,in series. Made front end heater voltage clock in at 12.0VDC sharp.

As is i run the amp in 240VAC mode. Have used it a fair bit here at home hooked to my surround and...i´m happy as pie with it! :D
I run it through a pair of Tannoy floor speakers,and the "tube" difference is all there-no argument.
To a degree where i´ve decided to buy yet another one and overhaul to be able to enjoy tube power in the 4 corners of the room.

Further,i plan to compliment them with a Braun PS turntable (plattenspieler) as time passes but am still undecided on which model though.

Remains the aesthetics then. I´ll hold my horses and refrain from handling that until the next unit is done and residing by the first one and then plan to have both the sheet metal "covers" of both amplifiers powder coated light grey-per stock. Sorry to say that´ll make away with the lettering out back,but you can´t win them all i guess :(
On the other hand..when powder coated there will be two specimen of the old Braun CSV-13 residing here at home..being all they can be.

Btw.
It is my understanding that these amplifiers came in two versions? Circuitry wise that is? I read up over the internet how to convert them into RIAA standards,vs the CCRI that was supposed to be stock. However,upon closer examination of the unit i´ve got it turned out that it already was RIAA in as much that the entry stages gridleaks for the phono part of it already was 47k,and this had not been touched since new.
In short,are my findings on the matter correct?
That these amps came in EITHER RIAA or CCRI standard?

Cheers!
/Jesper

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#2 Beitrag von andreas schnadt » 20.01.2014, 11:56

Hi Jesper,
you are a little bit wrong; your amplifier isn't a CSV13, it is a CSV 60!
Good luck for your restoration!
Andreas
Viel Freude beim Hören !

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carlos
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CSV 13

#3 Beitrag von carlos » 20.01.2014, 12:29

Hi Andreas and Jesper!
Wrong info from Andreas, it is CSV 13 with EL 84, CSV 60 is working with 4x
PL 500 (PL 504) ...., see the picture!

Cheers Carlos
... and here another specialist: http://www.vandenboom.de/

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#4 Beitrag von andreas schnadt » 20.01.2014, 13:43

I'm in doubt, the CSV 13 has three switches on the right side, the CSV 60 has four of them. And the photo shows four of them; am I completely wring?
Andreas
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CSV 13, CSV 60

#5 Beitrag von carlos » 20.01.2014, 14:06

Hello again!
Here some further information:

CSV 13, CSV 60: 3 switches on the front, CSV 13/1, CSV 60/1: 4 swtiches.
Tape monitoring, auf neudeutsch Vor-/Hinterbandkontrolle.
Gruss Carlos

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#6 Beitrag von Racing » 20.01.2014, 14:14

Hallo alle.

Thanx for all the replies boys.
Well aware that this is a German forum,feel free to write in German. I have no issues what so ever understanding,and in fact lived a couple of yrs as a young boy on the outskirts of Hamburg,and in addition to that we learned German in school for several years as well.
Reason for me writing in English is that it´s my second language as i mainly grew up in an English speaking country.
IOW...just be yourselves :lol:

Yes. From what i´ve gathered the CSV-60 indeed uses either PL-500´s or 504´s. The PL series of them tubes i´ve got no previous experience with,however i DO have a lot of experience with the EL-500, EL-504 and in turn the these days super expensive EL-503. Great tubes,however i doubt them being as intended for music as the EL-84´s are.

Yes. It has become my understanding that the CSV-13 was made in several versions. As stated above i for one at least frowned upon the 47k gridleaks for the phono stages when i undertook the overhaul of the unit.
I did however not know that there were designations for the various models. Thaaaaaaaank you for that update!
So?
I take it this is a CSV-13/1 then?
Were there even more revisions of the same design in turn?

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#7 Beitrag von Racing » 20.01.2014, 14:23

Andreas btw...
Common for the three digit 500 series tubes is that most of them use "magnoval" sockets. Looks like a common noval socket,like for instance used for the ECC-81/-83/-808 asf tubes as well as the EL-84 et al,just larger in proportions.

Magnoval

In short they´re just physically larger. Still 9 pin though.
As stated i do LOTS of tube amps for guitar as well as bass and magnovals are for instance used in the old German Klemt/Echolette B series amps,in the Italian Geloso,FBT and sound amps et al.
To be honest i kind of favour these later developed tubes when it comes to guitar use. The EL-503 is a downright magic tube in my opinion,bar none.
One of the benefits of these later (well..) developed tubes is that they feature a somewhat different transconductance amongst other properties and in plain text that means that they don´t need as much insignal as for instance an EL-34. That in turn means that you get a more "silent" amplifier in idle which..brings that amplifiers so equipped with ease can be turned into great "studio amps".

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#8 Beitrag von andreas schnadt » 20.01.2014, 16:29

@ carlos
thanks for clearing up, now I've understood the difference!
Sorry for having made trouble! :idea:
Viel Freude beim Hören !

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#9 Beitrag von Jens » 21.01.2014, 00:14

Hi Jesper,
I just read over your comments about the phono stage question, determining if the CSV13/1 complies to either RIAA / CCIR Standard which is a bit tricky to answer..
It is my understanding that these amplifiers came in two versions? Circuitry wise that is? I read up over the internet how to convert them into RIAA standards,vs the CCRI that was supposed to be stock. However,upon closer examination of the unit i´ve got it turned out that it already was RIAA in as much that the entry stages gridleaks for the phono part of it already was 47k,and this had not been touched since new.
From specification point of view both CSV13 / CSV13/1 comply to CCIR . However, the circuitry among the CSV13/1 did change and Braun made some small changes to the pre amp section (valid for both CSV 13/1 - CSV60/1 which share the same pre amp section). The 47k resistor replaced the former 33k one which balance out the high tone tendency of CCIR. To convert this section into a 100% compatible RIAA phono section you need to move on. Please reffer to this know german tube Site.

Frihu (sorry, German)

You may take in mind that you don't need to change anything if you combine the Braun turntable PCS5 to your amp which fits perfectly to the amp phono section. Before starting to change the circuitry you might think about it for a good reason.

Thank & regards,
Jens
Don't Panic!

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#10 Beitrag von Racing » 21.01.2014, 01:16

Hi Jens.
Thanx. Have read that tutorial before,and appreciate what most of it comes down to. As such i guess it´s all good.

Maybe i´ve been a little clouded in my explanations.
I´ll try to be a little more elaborate if that helps.

At the moment,where i´m at with this,the whole RIAA thing is unsettled to me. In fact,i at the moment search the various mainland european sales boards for a turntable that i feel will be worth the effort,and from that respect-might be a bit loudmouth to be honest,if the amp is compliant with the turntable or not really is secondary to me.

No1 in that case is that i want a turntable that appeals to me,which incidentally the earlier PS series does.
A PS5 or similar though is where i feel that the actual TT per se gets to "old" from a design point of view. Mark,that is a taste only remark on my behalf.

In short to me it´s a tradeoff between looks and design vs practicality.
However,it just so happens that the Braun TT´s of the time,from what i´ve gathered,have a very solid reputation. Then again,these are so old today that i have NO idea what so ever what possible standards they adhere to.?

So..
Right now i´m looking for a nice PS-500 or PS-600. Without any real hands-on experience of either i´ve just got a gut feeling that any of them would be more or less up my alley.
If not,as far as choice of TT,,please tell me otherwise..

One very vivid issue on the matter is that many an old turntable is modified,one way or another.

As far as the electronics side of it i do not just repair tube amps /PA amps what have you not,i modify the behemoth out of them as well and hence..RIAA or CCRI to me is kind of a moot deal really. That in itself comes down to mere analysis of given component values and circuitry. Again,as noted by your link,an area where the internet more often than not these days come to the rescue.

Then there´s a different side of it. To me at least these early tubedriven CSV machines carries a history and heritage with them that i find both interesting and intriguing.That whole deal with the CSV-13 vs the CSV-13/1 for instance i had no idea of until i was told here today,and hence..to me that is one of the true powers of the internet :lob:
So,in short,again thanx a million for sharing that knowledge!

In other words i have to direct beef with modifying any amp to suit a given scenario,however i fail to see the reason to modify for the sake of modifying alone.
At least ontopic of homestereo and/or PA systems.

Guitaramps in turn is a different matter... :D

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#11 Beitrag von Racing » 21.01.2014, 01:19

Speaking of which,as the schematics for the two CSV-13 models differ,WHAT differs?
I for one though the ones with the 47k entry gridleaks were built RIAA compliant?
Is there two different schematics to be found,and in such a case are they online?
The "regular" one for the CCRI one (with the 33k entry stage gridleak) is like everywhere,but as noted..i had no idea of the CSV-13/1 until today. Here.

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#12 Beitrag von Wilhelm » 21.01.2014, 03:12

Hi Jesper,
if I have a choice between a PS500 and a PS600 I would pick the PS500 any day. Imho there are to many compromises in the technical aspects of a record changer (PS600). By the way, the PS600 is actually an Elac player in a Braun housing.

Regards
Wilhelm

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#13 Beitrag von Jens » 21.01.2014, 07:16

Hi Jesper,
the CSV13/1 circuitry is like a rare animal. Hard to find and very shy. One solution might be to take the CSV60/1 circuitry instead. Both CSV13/1 and CSV60/1 share the identical pre amp stage. The CSV60/1 circuitry however can be found by following web link:

CSV60/1 circuitry
www.tube-classics.de

This is the only internet link for a (version /1) circuitry known to me. It pulls out the differences you are interested in. Please take in mind that only the pre amp section (ECC83 valve 1-4), the switches and signal in/out terminal are identical to your CSV13/1 version. All other parts including the high voltage power supply stage are different.

Thanks and regards,
Jens
Don't Panic!

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#14 Beitrag von Racing » 21.01.2014, 12:13

Thanx a million the both of you! :lob:

I really appreciate it.

From the looks of it that preamp for the CSV-60/1 is NOT RIAA compliant i take,and in that case what was the inherent design goal with it?

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#15 Beitrag von v/d/b » 21.01.2014, 15:32

Jens hat geschrieben:You may take in mind that you don't need to change anything if you combine the Braun turntable PCS5 to your amp which fits perfectly to the amp phono section.
Hi Jens,
I think here you are wrong.
CCIR or RIAA ist not a question of the used combination of equipment, but of the equalisation that was used during the produktion process of records.

Cheers
Thomas

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#16 Beitrag von Jens » 21.01.2014, 20:21

Hi Thomas,
Hi Jens,
I think here you are wrong.
CCIR or RIAA ist not a question of the used combination of equipment, but of the equalisation that was used during the produktion process of records.
I need to admit that your judgement is absolutely correct. From technical / specification point of view it is nonsens to claim that the combination of equipment is important. It is not in fact! :?

Listening a reasonable part of my entire live to the combination of PCS5 + CSV60/1 (got them from my father in early years) my personal view to the CCIR / RIAA subject is that differences between both equalization standards are pretty small among my components. The sound stage using RIAA vinyl disc is neither lacking by bass/mid bass nor unbalanced by too much heights.

I personally guess that the small phone stage modification (47pf capicitor instead of 33pf) made by Braun for both CSV13/1 - CSV60/1 models might tweak the CCIR equalization. I can't proof it though but it's what I can notice by listening. Don't take me too serious with this findings, it's my five cents... :wink: .

Best ones from Jens
Don't Panic!

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#17 Beitrag von Racing » 21.01.2014, 22:47

Gentlemen.
It is not that simple. The James networks used in the Braun amplifiers(2 of them-one for each channel) in case by all means alter the actual frequencies transpired through the circuitry is one thing,and indeed this can be altered to hearts desire.
For the one on quest for knowledge try google "Tonestack calculator (aka TSC)" by Duncan amps.
In there is a heading named "James",and you can indeed toss and alter the various values of a James to hearts desire.

In fact...

TSC

Although rather rudimentary the rather basic program is of value and to the point for anyone trying to understand how a James (and in turn its active "counterpart" the Baxandall) works.
Just doubleclick any value and a window opens where you can enter value you wish.

However,the issue at hand is the circuitry per se. As we move values of gridleak resistors,any and all gridresistors,cathode resistors and any decoupling thereof in turn as well as anode resistors and in turn rail voltage for a given triode we will alter how the triode in case performs its job.

ECC83

Although there are many datasheets out there for the ECC-83 (and IMO to be blunt the ones you can ALWAYS trust are the old Tfk (Telefunken) ones) they do amount to about the same thing.
Understanding datasheets for a given tube though might be another matter,but suffice it to say that the variables presented above will alter what we know as loadline and resting points for the actual triode.

First of all please take to heart that a tube does not amplify a damn thing. Not one yota even.
When we set a given triode up with the variables above set to specific numbers and turn the power on the triode will take to running in "idle". It will "rest". When we present an AC signal at the grid (pin 2 or 7 of an ECC-83) what happens is that we upset the electron flow of the tube,that runs from negative to positive,in such a manner that the AC signal introduced to the triode will be presented in inverse form in an amplified state between the anode resistor and the actual tube. In other words the triode is let to CONSUME more or less power dependent of it´s resting point,the load line-set by surrounding component topology and rail voltages-and in turn the incoming AC signal.
Please be advice´d that there are certain "do´s and don´ts" to this.

By altering the topology and/or rail voltage we will also alter how the triode stage amplifies the signal introduced.

If we do something as simple in case as alter inbound impedance,which we do in the case of RIAA vs CCRI,we will also affect the amplified signal as far as both amplitude and bandwidth.
Rather minor changes in topology,no matter which part/component really,can have a rather profound effect on the outcome.

How we i turn "adjust bandwidth to taste",and especially so in a passive filtering as the James,is secondary. That is not where we alter the basic character of the signal. That is where we adjust what we´ve PRODUCED.

It is nor as simple as just a matter of amplitude and bandwidth but as stated in the text of the Frihu page it also comes down to a time exponent,amongst other factors.

In short some of this is rather complex from a math perspective,which is guess is understandable.?
However..all is not lost regardless as an old adage holds true...-"if it sounds good it IS good". No matter the standard used and no matter how the triode in case is setup really. "Free your mind,yer ass will follow"-kind of.

IOW. For those so inclined do not be afraid to use for instance TSC to toss and turn a James to hearts desire. When building guitar amps i do so all the time,and in fact the James has become a personal favorite of mine. That said as most guitar amp builders frown upon the James seing its "flat" EQ response.
That is false as the response of a James can be had to vary GREATLY with component topology in combination with a basic understanding of what a James does.
Be advice´d that there is absolutely NOTHING that says that Braun had the final word here! The No1 tuning instrument is,and always will be,your own ears and judgement.

For those so inclined that wants to play around with this and iterate it on their computers,disregard the 33k resistor heading for ground at the bass side for iteration as long as the idea is to get a basic understanding.
Let is suffice for now that the 33k resistor in case works in parallel to a certain degree with the "midrange" resistor of 5.6k heading for ground.
For those grasping that part we can get into that 33k resistor later on. It´s been headed as a "loudness" function by some,however that is not the full culprit of it.

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#18 Beitrag von Racing » 21.01.2014, 22:58

Speaking of something completely different.

Has anyone but me reacted to the type/quality of the solder in PCB mount noval sockets for the preamps?
In my 13/1 they are lose,to say the least,and although i tried retensioning the sockets it was basically to no avail.
Hence,i will take upon myself to replace all of them as soon as possible.
The electromechanical contact between each tube and socket being as imperative as it is after all.

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#19 Beitrag von Racing » 03.02.2014, 01:32

Sorry to say my picture server has gone down.
Expect to get it up and running as soon as i get a hold of the guy that runs it.

Update then.
First of all i´ve been watching a couple of auctions on e-bay lately. Indeed it seems the 13/1 is rather scarce -all things compared.
There´s one up for sale right now,but besides that there is also a CSV-60,and this is what this post of mine is about.

I´ve been told by some that the 60 isn´t as "musical" as the 13? What gives,and is there any truth to this?
As you can imagine i´m still hellbent to get tube power in all 4 corners of my living room.. :lol:

Further it seems i´ve located a modified PCS-5 right here in my own hometown. It resides with a fellow enthusiast... :D

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#20 Beitrag von Jens » 04.02.2014, 00:33

Hi Jesper,
let me answer your question in following way:

The CSV60 which was constructed after launching the CSV13, is commonly perceived as the more worrisome amplifier. Braun was heading for a more powerful version of the CSV13 which led them taking over the construction principles of Dynakit, leading up into 30W output power per channel.

There are a lot of parts inside the CSV60 which were specified by fair quality to implement them in the given (small) housing of the CSV13.
Known trouble makers are located in the main amplification area (different from the CSV13):

- High voltage power supply unit (Greinacher Circuit)
- Output Transformer (standard quality and forced beyond the limits)
- Phase Splitter with ECF80 Triode-Pentode tubes for Push Pull method (oscillation risk)
- Beam Power Tube PL500 for the end section (not really an audio tube w. heating problems inside the CSV60 housing)
- Overall hum (the first CSV60 was troublesome due to substandard main power transformer and osscilation gear)
- Bias control could only be adjusted for all (quad) PL500. Necessity of using four equal (matched) tubes (same as CSV13 / PL84)
- Strong negative feedback loop for linearity purpose to flatten the output frequency (same as CSV13)

Even though it happen to be that several CSV 60 from the initial production came to a rapid end/get on fire or made an early withdraw in a repair service department due to extreme temperature impact from the end pentodes, the latter production showed significant improvements to stability and temperature behavior which result in the late CSV60/1 version. These later models are those you should take an eye on. They are gradually modified and at least stable.

Background for claiming this is that I still own a CSV60/1 which was newly bought by my father and handed over to me in early years. I do know any single component which was replaced over the years. There are not much !

From sound perspective (your question) I can assure that the CSV 60/1 does not show noticeable differences to the CSV 13/1 which could be identified by listeners (if) the CSV 60 is up to the specification (still OK or overhauled). I had the chance to compare both Braun amps with a friend of mine. Both models sound stage was pretty much equal. The CSV13/1 is better from specification point of view (frequency response due to better output transformers) and shows slightly better distortion values. In reality the differences you are able to identify by your ears are meaningless and up to taste.

If you are interested into some state of art measures (frequency, FFT (sine 1kHz), distortion) please follow this link: CSV 60/1 - Arta measures (you need to scroll down). These measures are not test lab quality but fair enough to get some insights. It's my view and I’m pretty sure that certain forum colleagues might disagree with me due to the bad reputation of the CSV 60…

Best regards,
Jens
Don't Panic!

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#21 Beitrag von Racing » 04.02.2014, 11:40

Thank you Jens.

As i interpret most of what you write it comes down to if the glass is half full or half empty?
What i´m saying is that it sounds to me that within limits the CSV-60 could for the most part be straightened out?
Issues like lack of bias control/resolution are easy enough to handle i guess,worse then with the powertransformer,if that happens to be the case.

Heat issues in turn can most certainly be remedied these days,at a minimum cost and hassle.

Point here,to me,is that i have previous experience with the "three digit" EL series of tubes. At one time i was of the notion that the EL and PL series tubes differed in heater voltage only,and indeed many of them share data sheets.
However.
After having played around with PL-84 vs EL-84 there´s no argument on my behalf anymore that they do differ from a sonic approach. In all honesty though it has not been a matter of apples vs apples,but more so apples vs pears. No matter,the PL-84´s has struck me as WAY more powerful under actual working conditions.

Anyway.
The three digit EL and PL tubes were after all from many a respect the pinnacle of tube design,being released most of them in the -60s,and as such i have a hard time debating them being tubes for intended purposes. Might be,that TO ME is besides the point as i do not rely on datapages for end results..i listen and the mere truth to me is that if it sounds good then it IS good. Simple. From that respect i don´t CARE what any and all datasheets say. Mind you,that reasoning is as far as listening results ONLY. The tech aspect of it-always,no exceptions,the datasheet is my bible.

The PL500 i bet can easily be replaced by the PL504? While the PL503 in this case would make for a to cumbersome piece of glass to fit i presume? Then there´s the 509 in turn as well as the 506. Anyone ever tried those? I mean,bringing them in with different OT´s while on a bench isn´t exactly the end of the world.

The ECF-80 in turn as driver/concertina. Have worked with them previously in this position (various Dynacords) and have to say that i´m only so-so impressed. Using a pentode setup for driver i guess has its merits,but at the same time basically keeping the entire preamp the same as the 13 model in such a case makes it detrimental doesn´t it?
Further,NOT having looked into the specifics of the PL-500 datasheet,i PRESUME they work the same as their fellow brothers,which in that case means they need limited signal peak to peak for full saturation.
In which case i fail to see the reason for a mix tube as late as the PI in the circuit even more. What´s the point?

I would have understood the reasoning would the preamp have been designed to amplify an absolute minimum (to get hiss and hum down),but as is?
Then what´s the point of the ECF-80?

From a music aspect i can tell you that working with the ECF-80 under distortion is a crap game. I´ve got a Dynacord DA-16V that sounds absolutely da BOMB at full blast,while a few others i´ve built to the exact,to the letter,same specifications only sounds so-so under the same running conditions.
So..to say that i´m impressed by the ECF-80 would be pushing it.
To the point where at least i wonder if it wouldn´t be an idea converting such an amp into running a driver/concertina as a regular ECC-83 instead.?
In fact the same reasoning hold water as far as i´m concerned with the PCF-82 as well.

Racing
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#22 Beitrag von Racing » 04.02.2014, 11:58

Jens.
Just looked through that post you linked and feel i need to comment on one thing not to come off as some sort of sonic fool....

I agree that much can be measured when it comes to hi-fi as well as instrument amps.
However in my opinion the most important factor of all is more often that not left out of the equation.
The receiver.
The human ear.
Point being that no matter what any and all test results will ever say the most imperative part of an entire amplifier,no matter which, is the receiver end. Point in turn being that our capacity to listen is about as personal as are our fingerprints.

Thank god for that from many a respect as that brings that one amplifier is not for all. As is speakers..asf asf asf.

Being rather new to the game of Hi-Fi i find that many a times debates on various topics come down to producing yadda yadda measurement online.
TBH i to a degree fail to see why,as again...it is the total composition of sounds reaching not only your ears,but your state of mind,physical fatigue at that moment aso aso aso that qualifies the end result.
The machine in case be damned.

I´m absolutely certain that from a medical POW this could all be measured and put in print too,it´s just that...again..as personal as you fingerprints and as moody as what temper you´re in at that moment.
One of the reasons that many of us happily owns records by Bach as well as Ramstein i guess. In short,in order to satisfy different needs-and that then for ONE individual only.

What i´m saying is that sound,to most people,is a very very complex proposition. To the point where i actually doubt that any real summary can be had from ANY datasheet.

Building as many guitar amps as i do i´ve come to conclude that certain days simply ARE not "test days". Nothing i´m aware of..until the first chord is struck. The exact same amp and speaker combo strikes me as different..from day to day. That said..even the voltage at the wall having been measured to be the same.

The human hearing and its associations are an extremely complex proposition and at least i for one feel this should be woven into account.

Hope that explains my standpoint a little more clear.
What i´m saying is that,TO ME,what always sets the final point is the net result. How it sounds.
If a datasheet tells different and i feel that the amp in case sounds good..then no exceptions the datasheet or oscilloscope or whatever is wrong and i am right. The machine is there for a reason.
It is there to cater to me. Period.

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#23 Beitrag von Jens » 04.02.2014, 14:55

Hi Jesper,
to certain extend I expect your answer and the direction it take. Be sure that my ears are well trained in the field of classic music and that I trust myself to provide a reasonable evaluation if neccessary.

Nevertheless keep in mind that an answer to your question concerning the CSV60 keep track with the requested subject. There are technical aspects and a tonal one (sensed by your ears). I'm not involved within the guitar amp business at all but I'm pretty good to sense if music reproduction comes close to life music (classic).

Technical measurements are a good control mechanism to make sure that worrysome shifts of a worne out technique could be countermeasured on early stage. There is nothing else to mention. We are not talking about lab tests nor a precise quality check which I believe is not possible with such measurement equipment. The topic is far too complex.

I will close the subject for me as the discussion is heading now into a different direction.

Thanks & Regards,
Jens
Don't Panic!

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#24 Beitrag von Racing » 17.06.2014, 23:34

Then for an update.

I got to replace the old Pioneer surround receiver here at home with a fresh Yamaha. That brought HDMI and a complete array of pre-out sockets.
In short,just what the doctor ordered.

The thing is that replacing the surround receiver really made for a world of difference. All of a sudden i could completely control the sound in the room in a way not previously possible.
All good right?

Wrong,and then for the reason for this update.
The CSV-13/1 started to exhibit a slight hum. So..told Cecilia that we would leave the CSV-13 off until i had a chance to look into it.
Well.
"Look into it" came yesterday. I took the amplifier apart and had brought a whole bunch of spares with me back home,expecting to find a leaking coupling cap.

Judge my surprise because looking around the amp,measuring everything in sight,it all checked out.
The B+ apart....
B+ was down from approx 340VDC to 265VDC!!!!!

Bild

Well. The offenders are right there. The almost new electrolytic caps i installed of 100uF/350VDC.
I spent the better part of half an hour looking around the amp coming up blank. Nothing..
Then by pure chance i had a look at them elkos and...the were bulged. The were full of brown "goo" on the outside. In short? They were shot.
But...why?
I HAVE monitored temperatures where they´re at and they´re nowhere NEAR 85degC!!!

Googled the whole thing and came up with "the electrolytic plague". Turns out that certain brands at one point were of REALLY poor quality and the country of manufacture is...China.
Some idiot thought they would save a penny or two and had ordered the units from some idiots in China that simply deliver unrivaled poor quality elkos.

The thing here is that they were no cheaper than any other elkos i´ve bought...so i called my supplier/vendor up and asked WTF?

New elkos on warranty,of course,but there´s a lesson to be learned here. NEVER use brand products you don´t know.
Simple as that.

JJ
F&T
Rifa
Jamicon aso aso aso are all good.

What brand those in the picture are i have no idea,but they are CRAP!

No harm no foul though and i guess the remedy is easy enough to someone like me.. Be forwarned though. This DOES happen boys!

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